Do Women Get Paid Less Than Men?
- By Simple Politiks
- 25 August, 2012
- 45 Comments
Hey everyone.
You’ve all heard the statistic that women get paid roughly 75 cents for every dollar that men make in the workforce. It’s a statistic used frequently in politics today, mainly with the Democratic party.
I saw this video a few months ago and I randomly remembered it today. I watched it again and it’s very interesting. If it is true, then the current statistic that is being thrown around is misleading. Watch this video to find out why:
Admittedly, I have not done my research to double check this video. It may be false information. It certainly raises some excellent points, though. If anyone can disprove this video’s statistics then please let me know by posting in the comments. Otherwise I think it may hold some truth.
Edit: While the video is very general, it holds a certain amount of truth. While women may not make 99% of men’s salaries (like the video argues), they definitely do not 75% of men’s salaries when you compare two workers of the same field and experience. From many of the sources I have seen (many are in the comments section), there is an indication of anywhere between 85-95%. While this is better than 75%, it is still a problem we should look into. I hope it is closer to 95% than 85%… That is all I can say about this topic for now. I’ll do much more research in the future and get the facts out there.
Copyright © 2013 
Here are additional references that corroborate your video:
4/26/2012 Wall Street Journal
OpEd piece
by Kay Hymowitz of the Manhattan Institute.
4/27/2012 Audio podcast of Denver 850 KOA radio talk show, with interview of Ms. Hymowitz. Listen to the first 10 minutes.
- Jeff
Ah, fantastic. Thank you very much!
In my previous comment, the words “OpEd piece” and “interview of Ms. Hymowitz” are clickable links. They don’t show up very well (not underlined).
- Jeff
I watched that video a bit ago as well. I wish we could do something about it, but honestly, half the time I don’t think people 9employers) even realise they are discriminating. Rather they feel they are providing a difference in rate based on qualifications, or skills, or experience.
Katherine, I hope you will read and listen to the references in my comment. They show that the difference in pay has many other reasons than discrimination. The only vestage of discrimination that could might still be there is when the woman (Kay Hymowitz) says that women choose lower-paying occupations…I guess that could be because they tried for other positions but couldn’t get hired, or they didn’t even bother trying for other positions because they thought they couldn’t get hired. But once hired, the apple-to-apple evidence is pretty clear that women don’t get paid significantly less than men.
- Jeff
I’m no feminist, but at least here in Sweden pediatricians have the lowest wages and the most women among doctors. This suggest that women don’t necessarily choose occupations with low demand but that they lower the wages in these professions and then Horwitz and others assume (or pretend) like it’s all about supply and demand.
Hmm, interesting. I’m not familiar with equal pay in other countries. My post is strictly about the United States.
All I’m saying is that there is a fully logical possibility of discrimination against women even if everything Horwitz says is true. And that holds for all nations : )
Yep. What matters if finding out where the discrimination is and then figuring out how to solve the problem.
Although, like same sex marriage and other issues of today, I have a feeling this one is going to be completely eradicated in a generation. Anything we can do to speed up the process is great. Just make sure we don’t over-exaggerate the findings.
This was excellent. And it put me onto several other videos that are equally as good and rational.
Great! I’m glad you benefited from it.
Great video, and I love your blog! Very nice design
Thank you! Glad to hear
I believe in equal work that deserves the same equal wage. But it normally happen in the world where you live in. Not in the countries who are still bound the issues against women equality to men.
I’m pretty sure any rational American is too. It only makes sense.
(I apologize if this response came off as insulting. It’s blunt but I assure you that I am only agreeing with you
)
Correct, Mr. Politiks,
This is not a challenge, I have no doubt that she is correct, but I am just wondering specifically what countries is it to which AngelnJuly referes. Angel?
I tend to trust Horwitz with regards to accuracy of information. From other things of his I’ve read, he doesn’t shy away from sticky points but instead tries to find an explanation for them, which I think this video is a good example of.
Also, he’s perhaps being gracious by not reflecting on the distortions that could be caused in the labor market by attempting to solve any discrepancies in pay through legislation. Whatever legislation would be passed would be in affect a price control, which always ends up with unintended consequences.
Don’t confuse me with the facts
Yeah, the video and those interviews has some points. Saddly there are some intrinsic factors not mentioned by any. Mostly end up resulting in the discrimination we know (still exists, no deny on that). I studied criminology in sex crimes and the most common thing I founded is the feminist movement assertions about gender discrimintaion. Still happens and people who even deny the necessity of feminist movements are usually the same who side with misogynist created stereotypes. The economical factors are a part of it like women getting jobs that has low income – although men in the same job still make more… and yet the high executive women aren’t entitled to the high payment other excutive in the same level in the same company has, but it’s mostly sexist stuff. It’s more of a cultural matter that we should look and correct.
You’d be surprise about how women is really classified in human resources departments of big companies. They may treat them nicely on the office, but they classify them as unstable resources unnoficially, since they have cycles and pregnancies. It’s the stuff that you wouldn’t believe still exists. I agree that a law forcing equality can have unintended consequences, but if we want to stop that kind crap from spreading to the next generations, we might have to do so. I know that people will simply disagree with me, but I had years of research and plenty of time to decide if those views were right or wrong.
Good timing on this article. I think we’re going to see at the upcoming conventions that both parties will focus on women’s issues (real or exaggerated), or at least on issues that women care about. I say this last part because I’m hearing that women are clamoring to get politicians to realize they care about the deficit, jobs, health care, and the economy too. My latest article is an interview of a Colorado woman who was with the Heritage Foundation but has recently started a new movement to focus on women’s views in politics.
And her name is?
Hey, just discovered your blog, and really enjoyed this blog post.
I wanted to make a comment on the video, which I thought had some excellent points. Indeed it makes sense that in an apples to apples comparison, women would get paid the same as men. I know in many bigger engineering companies there are specific positions such as engineer I, II, III etc that have set pay scales so there would be not discrimination in pay. Where the problem lies is in higher up positions. Women do not seem to get the promotions in the same way, and even if they do, accounting for outside factors, there is still a pay gap.
As an insider into a male dominated engineering field, I think there may be other factors besides making babies and choosing lower paying jobs that prevent women from moving to higher paying jobs. Just my two cents.
Women earn less than men at the top:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/16/the-gender-pay-gap-persists-especially-for-the-rich/
Women in fewer higher up positions:
http://www.economist.com/node/21539928
-Kat
Here’s my opinion. I am 40 and have a math degree. I was in the military and I recently retired from corporate life(consultant, director). I am also childless by choice and I am married.
I have not found nor have seen, at my level, pay discrimination between genders. I have seen people be denied jobs or paid less (i.e. bonus, perks) for not doing their job well. Perhaps were political viewpoints and education are pretty equal for each gender (I don’t know this for certain. I state this from my observations) here in Seattle, the pay is pretty much equal.
That’s good to know, thanks for your input.
This is a great find! Thank you for sharing
You’re welcome!
Mostly amateurish ideology. Start here – http://tinyurl.com/7tgrn5j – work your way into serious economists, paperwork behind the Lilly Ledbetter Act.
Op Ed pieces from WSJ never were worth much. Now, with Rupert’s crew – worth less.
Try searching polls at the Pew Foundation. Do your homework.
Her name is Krista Kafer, former senior education policy expert at the Heritage Foundation. The word “article” in the last sentence of my previous comment is a clickable link, but it’s kind of invisible, so here it is directly if you’re interested: http://necessaryandpropergovt.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/qa-with-colorados-future-project-founder-krista-kafer/
This is an interesting piece, yet I have several comments. One is the speaker noted discrimination was a factor in small part at the beginning, but in his conclusion did not list that as a reason. I understand his points and agree with some of the comments, yet gender discrimination does persist, but it may not be as severe as the 75%. He noted a percentage of 98%, but I would argue that it likely varies by type of job. For example, Walmart had the largest class action suit ever against them on relative pay for women. In retail, the hourly jobs are about as close as you can get to slave labor as allowed by law. All hourly ees are taken advantage of, but women seem to bear the greater force. I would like to see more detail on the subject by job and between women who choose to be mothers and those who do not.
This video is a joke. Women get paid less than men for the same exact job. Also the idea that women “take time off to raise children” as a negative. The very fact that women take time off and don’t make as much as men shows the inherent sexism in the work force.
Look at number 4 and 9 here: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2012/04/16/11391/the-top-10-facts-about-the-wage-gap/
Then there is this that tackles some of what the video says: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/women-earn-91-cents-for-every-dollar-men-earn–if-you-control-for-life-choices/2012/06/04/gJQAqrHkEV_blog.html
Then there is this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/women-doctors-paid-less-female-men_n_1591286.html
which states that “Men tend to be more aggressive at self-promoting and asking for pay raises than women.” However, men are more aggressive, again, because of the sexism inherent in our society. Any woman who is aggressive is seen as a cold bitch, but a man who is aggressive is a strong worker.
Stats aside– let’s, for argument’s sake, say this video is correct. The end of the video points towards the bigger problem, which is that women are disparaged in our society and condescended to in the work place.
And then there is also this: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rachel-maddow-reaffirms-pay-gap-argument-following-feud-with-alex-castellanos/
Just look at the census data.
Have you never met a femail real estate salesperson?
I agree, in Australia we have set minimum wages for different ages but not gender and yes woman earn less but hey it really is up to what you chose to do in life. no one is discriminating here at all. I am a woman who will have 2 kids by the end of this year (14 month old and newborn in November) so thus meaning 5 years I could have spent working has been cut out because I have decided I will get 2 new human being ready to start school and eventually get their lives on track without me. if you as a woman feel you are being paid less than men, just go around your job place seek out the men that work there and you will find they get paid less than women aswell.
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Here’s the most comprehensive and up-to-date article I could find, from Forbes. http://onforb.es/Jx30sn Making some adjustments, it estimates that women make about 85% of what men make, and then argues that about 60% of that difference is attributable to non-discriminatory reasons.
Yes woman do get paid less than a man and that should not be. Give the pay for the work that he or she does not just on a gender…
Couldn’t take the time to read ALL the MANY excellent and informative comments (wow!), so I hope my comment is not repetitive, but . . . What comes first? The choice of women to nurse our sick or teach our precious children (lower paying jobs), rather than study math, science and computer technology (higher paying jobs)? Or the assignment of a lower value to nursing and teaching just because they are women’s jobs, despite the importance of these occupations to our society? Lawyering used to be a male profession, but women are now outnumbering the men as new lawyers. Will lawyers skills become devalued as a result? My guess is, yes.
I certainly hope not. I have faith in my generation with this particular issue. I think most of us laugh at the idea of sexism, so I can’t see the discrimination continuing. And as time goes on there will be many people to point out the flaws in our society, much like feminists and others are doing now with equal pay. So, as I said, I have a lot of faith for the future with this aspect of society. I don’t believe women are receiving 75 or 77 cents for every dollar that men make… But after reading through many of these informative comments I am confident it is somewhere around 85 or 90 cents. Even so, it has to be stopped. 95 cents is too little, in my opinion. The ratio should be 1:1.
Thanks for your contribution!
I love your blog! I have a comment that I don’t think has been addressed yet. As I have talked with educators in our area, as well as my father who is a retired professor, there seems to be a common consensus. Over the last several years there seems to be a shift in education where girls are doing far better in school than boys. I see this with my own children and I see it with many of my neighbors’ children. For some reason girls seem to take education a lot more seriously than boys do. It will be interesting to see if this makes a difference in the workplace over the years. Maybe the the children of today, specifically girls, have received the message loud and clear and are deciding to do something about it?
Thank you!
I think you and your father (among the other educators you spoke with) are correct. I wouldn’t be surprised if women generally performed better in education. I saw it in high school and I see it now at college. College, however, is less so. Especially after the first year.
My best guess is something very simple: puberty. Girls mature faster than boys, so it only makes sense that they would have the priorities set straight more often than boys. Now that the idea of women getting jobs out of education is perfectly normal, we are probably just noticing the trend.
I’m in chemistry. Simply GETTING a job as a wife and mother was near to impossible. They didn’t offer a lower salary; they simply didn’t offer the job. I ended up having to settle for a dead end job until I got back in to school. I think it’s about even in the money department, but it the hiring is stacked against women.
I’ve not clicked on your video, but I had something to say.
I know women who choose to earn less than their potential. Many women who decide to do a job they find easy. These women choose to be underpaid. Being underpaid gives one the authority to say “No” to anything that is outside their job description or perceived level of responsibility.
I’ve been underpaid for the last two years. I’m planning to move to a different job, whilst I will be paid more, I will still be underpaid. That’s the way I like it (and I know a few men who choose this also).
Check out this logical viewpoint I found on another blog a few minutes ago:
http://thereformedmind.wordpress.com/2012/09/01/the-reason-why-so-many-economists-doubt-the-theory-of-rampant-gender-pay-discrimination/
I didn’t watch the whole video- but I’ve heard the comment about it’s the jobs they choose over the men in it and before. But, I think this raises other more interesting questions.
I think we need to ask ourselves what is occurring from the beginning to push women towards one job over another. (ie- not tracked into high math classes, discouraged to take shop classes, encouraged to babysit….etc) Women don’t wake up one day and say, I want to work in a job that will pay less than men, when they are clearly intelligent enough and spending enough time in higher education to qualify for those jobs. Additionally, another question to ask- is why are the jobs that men pick paid higher than the jobs women generally choose. Meaning, if more men became nurses would nurses be paid more? If more women went into engineering would engineers be paid less. These are the kinds of questions we need to seriously ask ourselves.
The video addresses issues across all job fields and areas as well as the career prospects over a lifetime.
However, it fails to address the issue of women getting paid less than men FOR THE SAME JOB. These would be identical jobs that require the same amount of education, experience, time, and effort. In this case, most of the arguments made in the video would not be aplicable.
Let me link you to some Bloomberg data. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-06-21/equal-pay-plaintiffs-burden-of-proof.
The video argues that the reason women get paid less is because they usually don’t join man-dominated jobs that lead to higher pay. This couldn’t be further from the truth, as even if they do join those jobs, they are paid less than man. Women CEOs make approx 75%, lawyers 79%, physicians and surgeons 75%, according to Bloomberg data, and these are all high-paying jobs.
Finally on a moral standpoint, the mostly female dominated ‘job’ of raising children is considered unprofitable for employers. Employers will have to worry about pregnancy leaves, medical insurance, and potential time ‘wasted’ raising children rather than focusing on work. Consequently, they become more inclined to hire a man, and pay less to a woman to consider covering these extra costs. Now what does that tell us about our society? The most important asset of the human race, the children, our futures, are being looked upon as a nuisance! What does that tell highly educated and career-ambitious women about having children? What kind of image are we setting here on the prospects of building a healthy family where mothers are not constantly juggling between work and family? How much more selfish can we be?
If anything, women should be paid more solely because they will spend 10 or so years of their lives raising children. A child raised from a well educated family with caring parents will be so much more likely to turn into happy, respectful and knowledgeable citizen. The potentials are enormous. Heck, why not pay women just for raising children? It is almost like a full time job after all. But unfortunately that is not realistic, and people aren’t that nice.
mhz, thanks so much for the great contribution. I’ve actually seen this article before (after I wrote this post), among others. I’ve been meaning to write a second post about this topic in which I would present actual research. When I posted this one I didn’t know much at all, so I was just posting the video to pose a question (for the most part).
This paragraph was taken from the second page of the article you shared:
Do you think this is a more accurate description?
More importantly, do you you know if the same qualifications were used as the sample size for the study that shows a 25% wage gap in a female CEO’s pay (among other wage gaps in the graph)? Was experience a factor? Were there more men than women? I’ll do some digging on my own when I have the time but I’m just wondering if you already know. I’m curious to see what the answer is… It would say a lot about the statistics and whether the U.S. professional employers are truly sexist or not.
And I just want to say something about your comments regarding raising children as unprofitable for employers. While the scenario that has unfolded does seem quite immoral, it does make sense to an extent. The housewife stereotype is still holding strong despite the fact that more and more women are starting to dive into full-time careers. My generation is certainly going to tip the scale in the other direction because more women are attending college than men nowadays, but there are still some complications. Most women will end up having a child at some point and many will decide to cut back on their careers in order to spend more time with their family. More women than men, for the time being. Additionally, it is costly for businesses to train somebody who is going to be on a pregnancy leave in the near future. And they can’t even be sure if that person will leave her job because of the child at some point down the road. The businesses will have to use more resources than necessary to compensate for the leave, let alone losing a worker (in which case the business would have to hire and train another). So, like I said, it makes sense… To an extent.
The closest we can come to fixing this is in a couple’s ability to share the responsibility of raising a child. If both men and women would share the sacrifices to their careers, I think women would be much less likely to have their wages suffer. Lastly, I also think a huge piece of this will be solved by my generation’s workforce and those that come after me. With these huge numbers of educated and trained women about to enter the workforce, wage discrimination will inevitably be minimalized. It’s just a matter of when… And I’m all for policies that speed that process up.